The Not-So-Great Resignation: Transcript

[00:00:00] Adam Grant:

Over the past year, millions of people have been quitting their jobs...

Konlan Paul (on TikTok):
I'm 22 years old and I just decided to quit my full time job…

Julie (on TikTok):
Today is officially my last day at the toxic corporate job and, no, one's even acknowledged that it's my last day.

Adam Grant:
People weren't just quitting at record levels. They were celebrating and posting their exits for the whole world to see!

Marisa (on TikTok):
This is me one hour before I quit my corporate job. I'm shaking. You can probably hear my heartbeat.

Adam Grant:
Quitting videos were all over the internet… entire teams leaving at the same time. people dancing and popping champagne bottles! Even announcing their departures through the store intercom!

warmandingo (on TikTok): Yeah, yo, it's getting real out here.

Adam Grant:
The Great Resignation has liberated some people from miserable jobs and abusive bosses. But for others, this whole movement… has also had moments of The Great Regret.

Yemanearion (on TikTok): This Video is for the people that the universe told you to quit your job and follow your passions? Because I did it back in September and life was good for a good two months. And then I literally lost everything that I had just worked for. Everything was hitting the fan.

So let’s talk about what you should consider before you leave—and what managers should do to help you stay.

[00:01:20] Adam Grant:
I’m Adam Grant, and this is WorkLife, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective. I’m an organizational psychologist. I haven’t quit studying how to make work not suck. In this show, I take you inside the minds of fascinating people to rethink how we work, lead, and live. Today: The not-so-great resignation. When and how to quit your job– and how to build a workplace where people want to stay. Thanks to LinkedIn for sponsoring this episode. Quitting is hard, but we will all do it at one point ...or maybe many points

Anthony Klotz:
I was working at a lumber yard in high school with my best friend and he and I both wanted to take vacation at the same time, which wasn't allowed. And so we both went to our boss and said, we both need to take this vacation. And he told us neither of us could take it. Cause we were in our busy season and both of us just looked at each other and we both quit at the same time . And that's always stood out to me as something that I'm not proud of.

Meet Anthony Klotz. His first time quitting wasn’t the last time he regretted the way he handled it.

[00:02:40] Anthony Klotz:
I started my career working for a wonderful employer. And I felt really guilty when I went to resign to move on, to do something else. And so I gave three months of notice, which is way too long for that context. And after about two weeks, my employees had moved on. My boss had moved on. And so there were a couple of examples for me of where I really mismanaged the resignation process.

As I reflected on my quitting experiences, I thought, yes, it was tough to make that decision to decide to quit, but it was even more difficult to figure out how to quit. Once you've made that decision to leave. There's no guidebook and because it's secretive, there's a lot of people that you can't talk to about it. And I figured I can't be alone in that. And it turns out I'm not.

Adam Grant:
He definitely isn’t. Anthony is now a management professor at Texas A&M, where he’s a leading researcher on quitting. In early 2021, a Bloomberg reporter emailed me asking if I could recommend an expert on how to quit a job without burning bridges.I immediately introduced her to Anthony. And in the interview, Anthony used a phrase that we’ve all heard a lot since then.

Anthony Klotz:
I was sharing my research and mentioned that I think it's really valuable that she's doing this story, because I think there's going to be a a great resignation in the US and the coming months.

[00:04:00] Adam Grant:
Yup…that’s how Anthony coined The Great Resignation!

Anthony Klotz:
It was only a few hours later that there were articles saying a professor's prediction goes viral... And my life hasn't really been the same since.

Adam Grant:
Did you know that you were coining it? Or was it just an afterthought?

[00:04:20] Anthony Klotz:
Absolutely not. It was a complete afterthought. And I have no idea why I said great. And I just said resignations because that's one of my areas of research. So I think that initial article surfaced this conversation that lots of people wanted to have and talk about the ways that they changed a little bit psychologically, or the ways that the pandemic affected them.

Adam Grant:
The pandemic didn’t create a new trend of quitting– it accelerated an existing trend. The Great Resignation isn’t actually as big of an outlier as it sounds. But still, the numbers are substantial.

In the US in 2021, over 47million people quit their jobs.

[00:05:00]
That’s a record. And it’s happening in other countries too.
Over the past year, people early in their careers -- teens and early 20s --- have been leaving at the highest rates, and the industries with the most turnover have been retail and hospitality.

And in the coming year, 41 percent of the global workforce is considering leaving!!

Of course, many people don’t have the option of quitting, or haven’t found a new job to jump to yet, so they’re dependent on the job they’ve got to support themselves and their families.

Of those who can afford to quit, some are leaving terrible working conditions, low wages or bad managers. And many have gotten higher-paying jobs. But plenty of people are leaving seemingly good jobs. I wanted to know why, and Anthony identified three factors. The first was burnout.

Anthony Klotz:
Unprecedented high levels of burnout.

Adam Grant:
Frontline workers were pushed past their limits.

[00:06:00]
People working from home were drained from longer hours, parents were struggling to juggle their responsibilities between home and work.

Anthony Klotz:
And one of the cures for burnout is detaching from work. And some of us can easily detach from work and others are not…feel they're stuck. And the only way to detach is to quit your job and take a break or quit and switch to another job.

Adam Grant:
A second factor was the fear of getting sick and dying. Something known as “mortality salience.”

Anthony Klotz:
You know, when we're near death or illness, starting to have these positive and negative existential thoughts, Am I living the life I want to live? And , that seems unique to the pandemic.

[00:06:40]
This just overall widespread jolt that individuals had that made them reflect on their life. I think there's a lower tolerance for jobs that don't bring people meaning. People's time is limited and valuable and that they want meaningful work.

Adam Grant:
And a third factor was that many people got a taste of freedom through remote work, and wanted more.

Anthony Klotz:
The pandemic allowed people to work from home for 12 to 18 months. And it was tough. And there's some things we'll always miss about the office. But what you can't argue with is that remote work provides you with more autonomy than being in the office does. And so when it comes time to give back that autonomy that I've completely adjusted to, we tend to not want to do it.

Adam Grant:
I imagine you have a lot of people who are coming out of the woodwork saying, Anthony, you gave me the freedom or the courage to leave my miserable job or my toxic boss.

Anthony Klotz:
I'm always a little bit careful because we resignations are at record levels, at least for as long as we've been keeping track of them. But resignations were pretty high in 2019 as well, going into the pandemic because the economy was so good. And so everybody who's resigning right now is like, yeah, I feel empowered. And I'm a part of this great resignation, and I don't have the heart or the knowledge, right.

[00:08:00]
To say most of you may have quit anyway, but there is like another 20 or 30% of you that are, that are part of this for sure.

Adam Grant:
And feeling empowered to exit an awful work situation is a good thing. But before you decide to quit, too, consider the reality that some of the people who resigned last year… have decided it was a mistake. In a recent survey, 7 out of 10 Millennials and Gen Zs said they regretted quitting their jobs.

Anthony Klotz:
Certainly some percentage, probably a significant percentage of these individuals who are quitting will experience regret at different times. Because all of a sudden the things, the reasons that you're leaving sort of melt away once you resign.

Adam Grant:
In a new study, psychologists investigated what happens to your well-being after you quit a job. They recruited thousands of people who voluntarily left their jobs for new ones and followed them for years. It was the longest study of its kind. And the outcomes weren’t good. Even though people left because they were dissatisfied, they actually became more dissatisfied in their new jobs for several years afterward. The grass often looks greener from afar, but not so much up close. So how do you know when it’s actually time to go?

[00:09:20]
If you have a depressing job or an abusive boss, and you can afford to leave, run for the hills! But if your work is bearable, it’s harder to decide when–and how–to leave. Whatever job or industry you’re in, evidence suggests that before you quit, it’s worth considering three factors: voice, loyalty, and alternatives.

The first question is voice: do you have a say in improving your current situation?

Anthony Klotz:
Companies are very keen to help employees job-craft and turn the job they have into the job they want. Before leaving, if you're leaving because you don't like one thing in your job, or you don't like 20% of your job, bring that 20% to your boss or to your HR manager and say, is there a way that I can, that I can improve this rather than going to another organization where you get rid of the 20% of your job that you don't like, and you get over to that company. And you're like, ah, they don't have that problem.
They've just got these five other problems that I didn't consider.

[00:10:20] Adam Grant:
If voice doesn’t improve your experience, the next question is loyalty. How much do you care about the organization’s mission and the people? Is the purpose aligned with your core values–and are you committed to the colleagues you’d leave behind?

If the answer is no, then it’s time to consider the third question. Do you have compelling alternatives?
Along with the factors pushing you away from your current job, are there viable options that you feel pulled toward? Are you drawn to a more interesting role, a great mentor, or a better learning culture?

This past year, I’ve noticed some people not really considering their alternatives before walking away.

But Anthony pointed out that alternatives are more readily available now than they were before.

Anthony Klotz:
There's a lot of opportunities to make some money online. And so I think what happened during the pandemic was this forced minimization. A lot of the expenses that we had prior to the pandemic went away. And I think a lot of individuals are not bringing those expenses back into their life. And they're saying, I've got a little bit of money saved. For some period of time. And so I want to take a break because I'm burnt out or I want to pursue some other venture for a little while. And so it does feel like right now the bar for the attractiveness of the PULL to get me to quit is a little bit lower than it used to be in the past. And that makes sense, because there are far more options for how to make a living now than there have been probably ever.

Adam Grant:
So you’ve evaluated voice, loyalty, and alternatives, and you’ve decided it’s time to leave. How do you quit without burning bridges? Schools will want recommendation letters. Your next employer will probably call your last boss for a reference. And you might want to come back one day if what you thought was greener grass actually turned out to be Astroturf.

[00:12:20]
In his research, Anthony has found that when people are ready to quit, something in them shifts...and it's not always pretty.

Anthony Klotz:
So the organization is the party that has the power. We do not. The organization can let us go. We probably need that paycheck. And so we're used to being on the wrong end of the power structure there. As soon as you decide to quitthat power balance flips, and often when people get a surge of power, it reveals who they are. Sometimes not great things can happen.

Adam Grant:
In recent years, some of these power surges have been recorded and posted online for millions to watch. From a TV anchor quitting on-air to a man bringing a marching band to play just as he tells his boss he’s quitting! Anthony has discovered that if you’ve felt mistreated at work, when the power surge happens, you might regret the way you resign.

Anthony Klotz:
It's very much this exchange relationship comes into play at the very end where you think I've been treated unfairly by this organization. So this is my chance to try to even it up and maybe steal some copy paper on the way out. This is my chance to blast my boss on social media or to my coworkers, and try to get even.
Adam Grant:
I've seen a few resignation videos. I'm like, wow, that person's an asshole. I think what your research suggests is maybe that person worked for an asshole.

Anthony Klotz:
That's exactly right.
Adam Grant:
You have the upper hand. But you don’t want to stoop to their level. And once you announce your resignation, the narrative is out of your hands.

Anthony Klotz:
As soon as you let one person know the text strings start pretty quickly. And so making sure that the message that you give is pretty clear, quickly delivered to the individuals that need to know. Directly from you and that the message is consistent as well.

So I've talked to lots of individuals that say, how do I write a good resignation email? How do I write a good resignation text message? And my research suggests that those are typically construed by managers as very avoidant styles of resigning and can be pretty insulting to managers. And then you get your resignation started on the wrong foot. You'll just gain all the respect and positive momentum if you just have that face to face conversation, right from the start. And of course, since we're in pandemic times, zoom to zoom face-to-face is perfectly acceptable as well.

Adam Grant:
What I think is tricky about that, Anthony, is in some ways it conflicts with your recommendation to control the message, because I know if I sit down and craft my email, I'll say exactly what I want to say. It won't get misinterpreted or misremembered. And I also can manage my emotions carefully. Nobody's going to try to talk me into staying right or start hurling expletives at me during the email conversation. How do you think about balancing those competing goals?

Anthony Klotz:
I add a whole lot of practice in, and you just threw out some scenarios that you definitely want to be prepared for. What happens if they make a counter offer? Being prepared for all the different reactions that your boss may have, from crying to laughing and being happy about you leaving, to being really angry and sometimes we think the most perfectly crafted messages contain blind spots and they're not the most perfectly crafted messages. And all of a sudden, you've got a resignation email out there that's being forwarded around the company with something that's been construed in a way that you didn't want it to. And you can't take it back at that point.

Adam Grant:
Recent research suggests that the phone might be optimal: it comes across as more authentic and effortful than an email or text, but shields you from leaking unwanted emotions through your facial expressions. Once you have a clear resignation message and delivery strategy, you have to consider what the best notice period is. This isn’t just for you. It’s for the people you care about too.

[00:16:20] Anthony Klotz:
The question that I think you really want to ask yourself is how do I resign in such a way that I minimize the disruption to the organization? Thinking about your coworkers, thinking about your boss, uh, any projects you need to wrap up and so forth and factoring that into your notice period. I think you can think to yourself, what's the last note that I want to leave on in this organization?

Adam Grant:
Now.. If you’re a leader, it’s nice to see your employees leave nicely. But you might want them to not leave in the first place. What if we met the Great Resignation with something like a great affirmation? More on that, after the break.

[AD BREAK]

Ursula Lepporoli:
There was one day where three people quit on one day. which was probably the worst day of my career.

Adam Grant:
This is Ursula Lepporoli...

Ursula Lepporoli:
Ursula Lepporoli, Lepporoli like pepperoni, but with L.

Adam Grant:
Ursula Lepporoli is a partner at KPMG in Australia. Back in 2017, one of her employees quit. Then a second left. And a third. And for the next year and a half, it kept happening…

Ursula Lepporoli:
It was what I call a mass exodus in our team., so we had many people leaving And I was co-leading the team at the time. and I was like, what are we going to do?

Adam Grant:
You said mass Exodus. How mass was it?

Ursula Lepporoli:
Oh, maybe half the team. It wasn't a pleasant time.

Adam Grant:
What did people say about why they were leaving?

Ursula Lepporoli:
We just started new processes and we'd done a restructure. So it was a tumultuous period of time. So I think it was, you know, a lot of things kind of building up that led them to it. And then once your friend goes it's "all right, well maybe I should go" and then you start thinking about it.

Adam Grant:
There's a name for that. It's called turnover contagion.

[00:18:40] Anthony Klotz:
Turnover, contagion is very real.

Adam Grant:
Great Resignation expert Anthony Klotz again…

Anthony Klotz:
Often when you decide to quit your job, your coworkers around you weren't thinking of leaving, but now all of a sudden someone that they like is leaving and that makes their job a little bit less satisfying. Also by you leaving, you may have just dumped more work on their plates. When someone leaves, it can also plant a seed in your mind...and you start reconsidering your job and your loyalty to the organization.

[00:19:20] Ursula Lepporoli:
You know, what's that saying your mother tells you? "If everyone jumped off the cliff would you?" But I think if one person starts to go, then you're kind of like, well, what's on the other side of that cliff? So I think it just makes it easier for people to think about it.

Adam Grant:
What was the mood like as all jumped ship.

Ursula Lepporoli:
Not great. I think from my perspective, as a leader, you feel like, oh gosh, is it me? What's going on? And you start doing a bit of soul searching.

Adam Grant:
Ursula wanted a big change.

Ursula Lepporoli:
We gotta rebuild this and we gotta build it better. So how are we going to go about that?

Adam Grant:
During this mass exodus, She was doing exit interviews but she realized she wasn't getting the full story.

Ursula Lepporoli:
If your boss asks you why you're quitting and you've already decided that you're going to quit, you're probably not going to tell them everything. You're going to hold a little bit back.

[00:20:00] Adam Grant:
So as a manager, how could Ursula turn things around when she didn't have all the pieces of the resignation puzzle?

Were they overwhelmed by work? Did they lack trust and respect? What pushed them over the threshold?

Let’s be clear about something. The optimal turnover rateisnot zero. Research reveals that when people leave, it can disrupt groupthink and open up access to fresh ideas.

But too much turnover has a high price for organizations. It can erode productivity, creativity, community, and culture.

Exit interviews can help you understand why people are leaving.

But evidence shows that if you want to retain people, it’s critical to check in with them BEFORE they’ve shown any indication that they’re ready to quit.

Ask people why they’ve decided to stick around– and what would keep them in the future.

That’s called a stay interview.

Ursula Lepporoli:
And the concept really just resonated with me.

Adam Grant:
So Ursula started reaching out to some of the people who stayed.

Ursula Lepporoli:
I was curious as to why they stuck around and you can spend a lot of time focused on the people who need a lot of help and are, you know, not pulling their weight or you can have a chat with the people who are the strong performers and understand what's their magic.

Adam Grant:
The goal of a stay interview is to show people that you’re invested in them and learn what you can do to improve their jobs and the organization.
Last year, one of Ursula stay interviews was with a star performer who’s been on her team for the past decade.

[00:21:40] Rebecca Maine:
My name's Rebecca Maine and I'm a senior consultant in the sales team assisting with preparing tax returns.

Adam Grant:
Before her stay interview, Bec had seen two colleagues leave. Turnover contagion was in the air.

Rebecca Maine:
It was stressful just because it was kind of like how much is going to be left on my shoulders to do, and obviously difficult to sort of find new, great people to fill their spaces. And so I think Ursula was definitely just sort of curious as to what makes me stick around, and what I enjoy about my work, but also what areas I could sort of see some, growth and potential in the future. It was a really good sort of opportunity for me to give feedback sort of the other way and have that sort of open discussion.

Adam Grant:
Why did you pick Rebecca to have a stay interview?

Ursula Lepporoli:
I know that Bec will voice her opinion. So it's not like if I sat Bec down, she would only give me the lollipops and sunshine version of what's going on. I have a whole page of notes from the conversation.

[00:22:40] Adam Grant:
Oh wow. you, kept them.

Ursula Lepporoli:
Yeah.

Adam Grant:
Amazing.

Ursula Lepporoli:
You can't just have this conversation and then not do anything about it.

Adam Grant:
Follow-through matters. When people speak up with suggestions, they're more likely to quit if managers aren’t open to making changes. From the start, Ursula signaled openness.

[00:23:00] Ursula Lepporoli:
So I put the invite in her calendar for just like a 30 minute catch up. I set the scene in the invite to say, this is nothing that you need to prepare for. I started with something like, you know, Bec I'm going to ask you some questions today. I want you to be honest with what you're telling me, this is between me and you. Just letting her know that it's a safe space and and yeah, like I just want to hear what's going on with you.

Adam Grant:
What was in your head when that happened, Bec? Were you suspicious?

Rebecca Maine:
I don't think I was suspicious. I was definitely kind of prepared, but also unsure about how I could possibly prepare for a stay interview. I had no idea what kind of questions Ursula was going to ask me.

Adam Grant:
Ursula started with some basic questions…

Ursula Lepporoli:
What do you like least?

[00:23:40] Rebecca Maine:
I think I said that we get weekly statistics and occasionally, you know, you have a week full of meetings and don't meet that deliverable. And sometimes that's a bit disheartening and that sort of all that's being recognized about your job. So I think that it's very beneficial when we look at it at a whole sort of overview of the team.

Adam Grant:
And Ursula took notes. And a few weeks later, Ursula acted on those points. She started tracking progress on team goals rather than individual goals. That reduced pressure on weekly deliverables. But she didn’t stop there.

Ursula Lepporoli:
What do you like most? Can you tell me more about what keeps you here?

Rebecca Maine:
One thing that I do likeis that our firm is such a multinational company, and the fact that there are potential opportunities working working on sort of presentation skills and that i want to go down that pathway

Adam Grant:
..AND LATER THAT SAME YEAR...

Rebecca Maine:
We got an opportunity to actually give a presentation to another team. And I loved that sort of exposure.

[00:24:40]
It was, it was not something that I'd done in my career yet.

Ursula Lepporoli:
And she wanted more of those kinds of opportunities. When we were talking about this, I said, oh, Bec's the one to pick. She wants to do more presentations and out of the box experiences, here you go.

Adam Grant:
Wait, are you saying that Bec got drafted for this conversation because of what she brought up in her stay interview? Podcast opportunity. I will go to the person on my team who wants to do more public speaking.

Ursula Lepporoli:
That's correct.

Adam Grant:
Bec also mentioned that she wanted to grow her leadership skills.

Rebecca Maine:
And from that, I was then a buddy for one of our graduates.

[00:25:20]
I got a promotion last year, Ursula sort of made sure that with that promotion, I did get some more opportunities to lead.

Adam Grant:
Ursula, was there a question that was especially hard to ask?

Ursula Lepporoli:
Aaaah last question, which I think was her favorite question which was what might tempt you to leave.

Adam Grant:
What'd you say, Bec?

Rebecca Maine:
I think I basically said, you know, a big pay rise would definitely tip me elsewhere. I don't think I would ever just sort of move to a competitor to do the same thing. It would definitely sort of have to be a big sort of career change. But I just appreciated the question because there was no negative connotations.

Adam Grant:
It's a tricky question to ask. Because you're kind of saying like Bec, you're a very loyal employee. What could I do to undermine that?

Ursula Lepporoli: [laughs]
Even asking back to come on this interview and then telling people what would tempt her away makes me uncomfortable.

[00:26:20]
But I think if you shy away from the difficult conversation and the difficult questions, then you kind of missed an opportunity.

Adam Grant:
My first thought when you gave that question, as an example was, "Oh, yeah. I don't know if I want to plant that seed and get you thinking about what would motivate you to leave." And then the more I thought about it, the more I realized, but even if that seed is planted, you've also communicated something much more important, which is I care enough to ask that question. I care enough to try to find that out and prevent it from happening.

Rebecca Maine:
No, definitely. I mean, Ursula, I think after my sort of response to that, she was basically like, if you ever do sort of have an idea that you want to career change or anything like that, I would really appreciate if you spoke to me before, because you know, KPMG is such a large firm, you know, if you do want to try something else out, um, I'm sure that we could find that kind of opportunity for you within the firm.

Adam Grant:
Extensive research suggests that people are more likely to stay when they’re embedded in their jobs. That means their work aligns with their values and goals.

[00:27:20]
They feel a sense of belonging with their colleagues, and they would have to make real sacrifices to leave. But few people will stay forever. And Anthony Klotz believes that if you really love ‘em, you should let ‘em go. With great affirmation.

Anthony Klotz:
So when it comes to letting employees go, why not celebrate them on the way out? Why not get in touch with them a month later, employees after they leave, may feel a little lost and they may feel. That's a great time to touch base with them.

Adam Grant:
Or even go a step further than affirmation and offer departing employees a way to explore something else—without really leaving?

[00:28:00] Anthony Klotz:
Why not give your top performer a one-year leave of absence. So all your benefits and everything stay in place and we'll check in with you every three months or soand keep that door open instead of seeing it as a sign of disloyalty. So really encouraging quick boomeranging back, if you will.

Adam Grant:
Oh, I like this. So it's like offering an unpaid sabbatical as a retention device.

Anthony Klotz:
Yeah, that's a perfect way of putting it. Some of the ways that organizations and organizational leaders view resignations are changing over to. 20 or 30 years ago, it was, if you resigned, it was almost always seen as some sort of betrayal And increasingly organizations are starting to view resignations more favorably and realizing, oh, this isn't a disloyal person who is leaving.

[00:28:40] Adam Grant:
If you treat people well on the way out, they’re more likely to come back. And boomerang employees can outperform outside hires, at least initially – especially in jobs that demand a lot of coordination.

Anthony Klotz:
Boomerang employment has been increasing even before the pandemic. And so it stands to reason that with the wave of resignations we're seeing right now, individuals perhaps just needing a small break from the workplace, uh, individuals wanting to try out an entrepreneurial venture. That in the next two to five years, we'll probably see even a bigger wave of boomerang employment. And I think it's important to realize that boomerang employment is a situation that can often be a huge win for the employee and an even bigger win for the organization.

Adam Grant:
And sometimes it’s a safety net for people who start to regret leaving. Which Ursula has seen firsthand.

Ursula Lepporoli:
We actually did have someone boomerang back, he left and he called me a week later and asked for his job back.

[00:29:40]
And I said, welcome. Come on down your seat’s still waiting. I think people were shocked and thought, gosh, that was quick. I think we'd purchased him a really nice departure gift from art. We collected funds and gave him a really nice bag.

Adam Grant:
Did he give it back?

Ursula Lepporoli:
There were some jokes about that--

[00:30:00] Adam Grant:
What do you say to managers who consider that disloyal? Who say, if you left, you can't come back.

Ursula Lepporoli:
Just, you know, realize that we're all human. you make decisions. Sometimes you need to reverse out of that decision.

[00:30:20] Adam Grant:
We don’t know yet how long the Great Resignation will last, and how many people will reverse out of it. What we do know is that we’re all drawn to joining and staying in places where work doesn’t come at the expense of life.

Anthony Klotz:
It does seem like a lot of individuals have really thought about how big and central work is to their life and this is going to be probably a little bit too optimistic, but it does seem that most of us can agree that we're tired of hustle culture and would like to see that go away. That we're not impressed by how long you've worked or how many weekends you put in and those sort of things. Gosh, I hope we're at a moment now where that can quit being cool to talk about.

[00:31:00] Adam Grant:
If that happens, we have a better shot at landing in jobs that enrich our lives instead of interfering with them.
And instead of rejoicing to leave, more of us might even start celebrating our decisions to stay.

[Theme Music]

[00:31:20] Next week on WorkLife…

CLIP: The benefits were that individuals were better able to get their work done. The team was more effective at working together and it was the first on-time launch in the products in the division’s history,

Flexibility at work is much more than just letting people work from home.

CREDITS
WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Dan O’Donnell, JoAnn DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, and Anna Phelan. This episode was produced by Constanza Gallardo. Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan. Our fact checker is Meerie Jesuthasan. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown. Ad stories produced by Pineapple Street Studios.

Special thanks to our sponsors: LinkedIn, Morgan Stanley, ServiceNow, and UKG.

For their research, gratitude to Meike Sons and Cornelia Niessen on voluntary turnover, Albert Hirschman, Michael Withey and William Cooper on exit, voice, and loyalty, Rodger Griffeth and colleagues on turnover, Andrew Brodsky on phone as the optimal method, Julie Hancock, Tae-Youn Park and their colleagues on optimal turnover, Elizabeth McClean, Ethan Burris, and Jim Detert on manager openness, Terry Mitchell and colleagues on job embeddedness, and JR Keller and colleagues on boomerangs.

And thanks to Julie Martinez, Yemane Williams, Joanna Lai, Konlan James and Damane Carew for sharing their quitting videos with us.

Easter Egg
Ursula Lepporoli:
I think that you're an excellent baker.

Rebecca Maine:
That's fair. I like cooking.

Ursula Lepporoli:
Bec makes these--

Rebecca Maine:
--These little date things that like had no sugar in them covered in chocolate. So like a healthy Snickers.

Adam Grant:
It sounds disgusting, but only because I hate chocolate.

Rebecca Maine:
Who hates chocolate?!

Adam Grant:
It runs in the family.