Taken for Granted: Allyson Felix on defeating disappointment and savoring success (Transcript)

Adam Grant (AG):
Hey WorkLifers, it’s Adam Grant. Welcome back to Taken for Granted, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective. I’m an organizational psychologist, and this series is about rethinking assumptions we often take for granted about how we work, lead, and live.

Today’s guest is one of Time’s most influential people: sprinter Allyson Felix. In Tokyo at age 35, she won her 10th and 11th Olympic medals, becoming the most decorated track and field athlete in American history and the most decorated woman ever in the sport. She has now medaled in five straight Olympic games.

It was an especially triumphant moment since it came in the aftermath of challenging Nike’s lack of pregnancy protections for athletes. When Allyson was expecting in 2018, they tried to cut her pay by 70%, and when she asked them to guarantee her salary if her performance suffered due to childbirth, they refused. After she spoke out publicly and walked away, they finally changed their policy.

Since then, Allyson has founded her own footwear and lifestyle brand, Saysh, with her brother Wes. I’m an advisor to Saysh, and I was thrilled to see Allyson win gold and bronze in her own shoes.

I can’t think of a better role model when it comes to achieving excellence, sustaining success, and bouncing forward after disappointment.
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AG:
I think we, we live in a world that sort of assumes that you have to be a Tiger Woods racing from - in your world it would be like, you learn, you learned to run when you were four months old. And then, you know, even before that you were crawling down a track, right? So that by the time you were seven, you were already training for the national championships. What were you doing instead?

Allyson Felix:
I was a normal kid. It's funny. I had, no, yeah. You think Olympian, like you're off to some type of Olympic training camp or you're doing something, but I was literally growing up in my neighborhood. I played basketball. I did gymnastics. I chased after Wes. Um, I grew up in my neighborhood riding bikes and, you know, doing all the stuff that all of us did and I was just active.

And then in high school, you know, I found track and field from just being at a new school and wanting, and, and my family telling me sports is a great way to like find friends. And so that's how I found it, but I think, I think it's so important to try like everything I think, because I, I literally found my passion. It came to me and I think that allowed me to just, I don't know, have a lot of energy towards it, but yeah, growing up, I was, I was, you know, doing what kids do.

AG:
Um, there's some brand new evidence that world-class athletes started their sport later, and they also were more likely to have sort of cross-trained, um, or sampled lots of different sports before they focus just on one. Obviously that's the trajectory you followed. Why, do you think that is? What's the advantage of actually specializing later?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, that's really interesting information to me cause I've often wondered, you know, a lot of my counterparts, you know, did start very early on and I've also met people who are similar to myself. Um, I it's speaking to my own experience. I feel like I didn't burn out by doing so many other sports and by, you know, finding my sport later on and not specializing early on, I think that it benefited me.

Um, obviously I'm in a sport where it's not, you know, I don't want to say it's, you don't need a skill, but it's, it's different than, you know, some of the other, you know, ball handling things and things of that nature. So I think it kind of depends. But I do. I have friends who started running when they were five years old and by the time they got into college, it was just all too much. They had, you know, they had early on trained so intensely that there wasn't much left to give.

For me, starting in high school, everything was new to me. You know, I'm just, I'm having so much fun. I'm taking it all in. I would say that I probably seriously started training, when I was college age. Um, and so already then I feel like, you know, just even the toll on your body alone, you know, the years that you've given yourself, I, I also feel like the longevity that I've had is a lot attributed to starting later.

AG:
That's so interesting. Yeah. It may not be a coincidence that you've been an Olympian half your life.

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. It's so crazy to think of it that way.

AG:
I mean, it's, it, it jumps out at me right away. I'm like, what was, what was I doing as an 18 year old?

Allyson Felix:
That's funny.

AG:
One of the things that some people are speculating now that these data are out there is, well, maybe this is actually just about natural ability. That if, you know, if you're pretty talented, but not, you know, uh, a once in a generation talent, then you have to specialize early. Whereas if you're just an extraordinarily gifted athlete, then you have the luxury of just being able to try lots of sports. You're sort of good at everything. And then when you finally specialize, there's a higher ceiling. That leads me to wonder, were you good at everything?

Allyson Felix:
I was just about to say, well, that's the thing I definitely was not. So basketball was my first love and I still, I still, I love it, but I was not good. So, um, I probably, if I was, I probably would have went that route, but I was not, you know, I, I think I'm athletic for sure, but, um, I—

AG:
You think? Wait, I'm sorry. How many Olympic medals do you have to win before you say, I know I'm athletic.

Allyson Felix:
Okay. I guess I'm athletic, but I, when I, when you cross it over to other sports though, you know, I have friends who play, you know, a lot of different professional sports and they'll quickly let you know, you're not, you're not quite on this level. So it's, you know, it's a humbling experience when you would you, when you do that. But, um, I definitely can say that I cannot just pick up, uh, pick up anything and I'm good at it.

AG:
I think that gives us all hope. So I have many questions. I would love to just hear what your first Olympics was like.

Allyson Felix:
It was so long ago, but my first Olympics was 2004 in Athens and I was a teenager. I was 18 years old and it was almost in a sense, overwhelming.
Um, so it was all new to me I mean, I had competed a little bit on junior teams internationally, but it was like my first big international competition. And so it was great and amazing, but also in a sense, you know, it was a lot, I did everything that the Olympics has to offer, so I walked in opening ceremonies. I lived in the Olympic village. I traded pins. Um, I like did all of this stuff and then yeah, competing was amazing.

I think I was a bit, just a bit naive. You know, obviously every race you, you want to win. And so I remember, racing my heart out and getting a silver medal, and I was so new to the sport that I didn't know that, like, all three medal winners take a victory lap. And I remember coming off and my mom was so disappointed with me because she was like, why didn't you take a victory lap? And, well, nobody told me that I was supposed to do that. And so it was, it was so innocent and amazing, but it really lit the fire for me of, this is the Olympic spirit, this is what it's about. But if you want to reach the next level, it's going to take a lot more.

AG:
Did you feel like you lost?

Allyson Felix:
I did. It felt really heavy. And I think I didn't have a lot of obvious experience at the time. And I didn't know the weight of the Olympics. You know, I was competing in high school, that was what I had to compare it to.

It felt just, I couldn't put in perspective that I was 18 years old. I was at the Olympics that, I'd only been running track for like four years, you know, it, all of the things, but my family quickly helped me put it all in perspective.

AG:
Have you seen Jerry Seinfeld's routine on his problem with a silver medal?

Allyson Felix:
I don't think I have, no.

AG:
Oh, I'm going to send it to you. It's one of the funniest comedy bits I've ever seen. One of the lines that stayed with me was when he said, “silver medal, you came in first among all the losers.” What would you say to him?

Allyson Felix:
You know what I, in my early years I would agree, I would say absolutely. Right, but then your perspective changes and you grow and you realize the amazing accomplishment and then also how it propels you forward to get better. And like I talked about, I feel like my silver medals have, have really shaped me in a sense it's the character, the integrity, all of the things that you need to, to be able to grow. But, uh, but that's hilarious.

AG:
What emotions did you feel if you can rewind back to that time? The moment you found out you were second, not first.

Allyson Felix:
The first emotion that I felt was disappointment. Honestly it was, it was that I was close to gold, but I didn't get it. And that stayed with me, but then it was excitement once I had some help of realizing that, no, this is a major accomplishment. This is, you know, this is really big. And then also, I think excited for the future of like, this is just the tip. Like I'm just getting started. I know I have so much more to give.

AG:
Well, this is making me rethink something that psychologists have been studying for years, which I'm sure you've heard about ad nauseam, which is the classic finding that's now been replicated a bunch of times that bronze medalists are happier than silver.

Allyson Felix:
It's true. As I got older and, you know, I would watch different competitions and I would see people get a bronze medal and they would be so thrilled. And I remember thinking like, wow, I wish I could have that feeling. It's been so long, you know, it's, it's your defeats you feel them so heavy. And I think also when you're on the elite level for a while, you're expected to win. Right. You're expected to be great. And I think oftentimes people take that for granted and they don't, you've been doing it for so long. I think people forget what all it takes.

Those moments are heavier than the victories because it's just like, okay, well, good. It's almost like a relief. Like I was supposed to do this.

AG:
You just captured exactly what, what a new team of researchers has found in a replication. If I remember correctly, they looked at the Olympic medal photographs from, I think it was the 2000 through 2016 Olympic games. So I guess you were, you were in a bunch of these pictures.

And they coded the facial expressions that athletes had on the medal stand. And they showed again that silver medalists looked less happy than bronze medalists. And then they followed up and found that there were two explanations for it. One was silver medalists on average had higher expectations, and so they were more likely to be disappointed because they expected to win. Whereas usually if you got a bronze you, well in many events, right? You knew you didn't have a shot at gold. Um, the other was, I think the more interesting one, which is the counterfactual thinking of, you know, I could've, "I could've won gold" versus "I'm lucky I got a medal."

Did you go through that?

Allyson Felix:
I think that's absolutely right. It's interesting. I feel like this year, I guess I experienced that. I won my first, out of all the Olympics that I've been to, bronze medal. And looking back, it's hard to rank them all, but I would say it's one of the most meaningful medals. And so I guess that's in line with that. And it is because not only did I make my fifth Olympic team, I don't think anybody expected me to, you know, especially in the track community, to make that

AG:
I did. I definitely did. I had no doubts

Allyson Felix:
You believed in me Adam.

AG:
I saw the fire that you had. I was like, there is no way that Allyson's not going to make it and come back with a medal.

Allyson Felix:
I was going to be fighting the whole way, but, you know, and then to get to the Olympics and through the rounds, I think that most people thought I would make the final, you know? And so to get that bronze medal was just, it's definitely the most joyous I've been. And so, and earlier in my career, you could never tell me that I could celebrate a bronze medal, but I think a lot goes into that.

And, and yeah, it's really interesting the research there.

AG:
I think that's a sign of growth for sure that you can celebrate only being the third best in the world. I want to ask you about your experience of that in a slightly different way, which is when I teach this research, I like to tell my students about the difference between maximizers and satisfiers.

So there's maximizers, being people who are always looking for the best when they compete or when they make a decision, and satisfiers, they're aiming for good enough and trying to meet their own standards as opposed to some objective benchmark. And my, my hunch is, and I want to, I want to find out if this is actually accurate from the perspective of a true Olympic great, my hunch is that you can't really make the Olympics if you're a satisfier. Like you'd wake up tomorrow morning and you'd say like, “my goal is to be the good enough-ist runner in the world,” that doesn't go anywhere, right? Like you have to be driven to pursue the best is do you think that's right?

Allyson Felix:
Absolutely. I mean, I think it's not only, you know, obviously in sports, but I think any one who is, you know, extremely ambitious, like you're, you're going for the best and not only the best you want to do it better than anyone's ever done it before. You know? And I think that takes a special type of mindset, a special lifestyle, you know, it's, it's very different and you're constantly reaching and I think you have oftentimes, you know, doubts about that, you know, can I do more or how can I do more? How can I, how can I apply that to every aspect of my life so that I can be better in this one area?

AG:
What have you learned over time about how to savor success and actually enjoy doing extremely well, even if you weren't the best?

Allyson Felix:
I've learned a lot. Uh, like you said before, it's, it's been a lot of growth for me from the beginning of my career to, I think, I didn't learn it until somewhere towards the latter stages, but I used to be devastated when I lost races. I remember in 2008, I was, it was my second Olympic games and the first Olympics, I had a silver medal and I had just rededicated myself.

I felt like I did everything possible, you know, to be at my best and went to the race and got another silver medal to the exact same person. And there's nothing anybody could have told me to get me out of the space that I was in. I was just, I was upset. I was the favorite I, you know, expectations. And I fell short and I can now look back at that moment and I think it's probably the single most defining moment of my career.

At the time I couldn't see it, but now I understand that it prepared me for success later on. Going through that I learned much more than if I had won that race, you know, it's, it's so much more valuable. I had to kind of look at everything I was doing, reevaluate everything, figure out like, can I, is there any way that I can get better at my craft? And I looked at nutrition, weightlifting, coaching, you know, all those things, but it was that moment that brought me to it. And I think it's that, that moment that allowed me to get better from it.

So early on, there's no way that I could have had that perspective, but through growth I'm able to say, well, when I do have a race that's not up to my standards, there's still something to gain from it.

AG:
What do you say to yourself in those moments? If we were to get inside your head and hear yourself talk, what would you say now after a silver or even a bronze, that you didn't say at the beginning?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. Now. Well, what I was saying to myself after this bronze in Tokyo, was I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be here. I'm grateful to be able to do what I love. I'm grateful to be back on this stage. You know, there was moments where I wasn't sure if I was going to make it back or to make it at all.

So just having gratitude, having, um, you know, respect for the sport and respect for my competitors, that I am not the only talented one. I am not the only one who is working and giving and sacrificing and appreciating that, appreciating that there is excellence around me that there's beauty in lifting others up.

You know, I think to have success you have to be very selfish, but I think at the same time, you have to look around and say, I think, especially in the position that I've been in, um, “how can I help some other people? How can I lift them up so that now they can be the ones to take this torch and to carry it on and do some incredible things?”

AG:
Spoken like a giver, not a taker. Let me ask you one other thing on, on this silver medal topic, before we shift gears a little bit. So you finished that Olympics. you're obviously disappointed. You said over time though, that you learn to turn that into excitement, uh, that you did win an Olympic medal and you realized how meaningful that was. What were your goals then coming into the next Olympics?

Allyson Felix:
Gold. Uh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think coming off the silver medal, that's naturally, you know, where you go. I'm also at my first Olympics, I had only, I ran the 200 only, so only one individual event. Um, it had always been my dream to do multiple events. And so, going to the next games, I was excited to, you know, to branch out and do relays.

So much shifted from 2004 to 2008, just with my mindset. As a teenager, you're just excited to be at the Olympics. You're taking everything in and then coming back as a young woman and having sponsors and having obligations and also kind of navigating being a professional athlete. And I also was at USC full time and had just graduated, and yeah, just a lot happening during that time.

AG:
I remember when we first met you, you talked about the difference between competing to win, versus running not to lose. Do you think it's better to do one or the other? Like, would you rather be in the sort of racing to win or racing not to lose mode?

Allyson Felix:
Racing to win. I think that's, more enjoyable of a process. I think when you get in kind of the phase of racing not to lose it's - I feel like it's, it's like you almost have lost a bit of yourself, you know, and the reason why you started, I mean, it has a lot to do with the outside world of it and, and the pureness of racing to win. There's just nothing like that.

AG:
I can, I can definitely relate to that. It also seems like it affects your emotions a lot. Psychologists have found over and over again, that when you're in a prevention focus mindset where you're trying to avoid a negative outcome, that you experience completely different emotions than if you're a more promotion focused and trying to approach or attain a positive outcome.

So I think in the, in the not to lose version, it seems like when you, when you're relieved and when, you know, obviously if you flip it to I'm, I'm running to win that win is now elation, exuberance, joy, thrill. Have you experienced both of those?

Allyson Felix:
When you were speaking and explaining that I was like, I can attest to that. I think it's, it's very interesting in 2012, my experience, um, I would have to say that I was in that racing not to lose, because I had lost, you know, two Olympics before. And it was like, if I find myself in that same situation, like what is going to happen?

You know, it just seemed like it couldn't. And because I had been after this goal for so long, and it's something that I wanted so bad and I had worked so much and fell short, you know, for eight years on that when I had the opportunity, it didn't seem like it lived up to what I had dreamt it to be, you know?

And that's exactly what you're saying. Like those emotions, it wasn't the thrill, it was the relief. And I had to really, it took me time and space to understand, well, why, why is that? You know, why am I not feeling everything that I thought, why has my life not changed because this moment happened? And so it was really interesting and even a little bit hard for me.

AG:
Wow. So take, take me back to 2012. So you're coming off of two silver medals in a row in the 200, you're basically now showing up to say I can't lose the gold again. And what did it feel like when you won?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, my mindset was completely different. Obviously there were still all these expectations. Um, I've I was the favorite. I had the two silver medals before. Um, but, - going to the line, I felt a sense of calm and a sense of peace. I think because I came to the realization that I've done everything I can do. Like I've done all the training. there's nothing left unturned. Like this is what it is. And if this is not meant for me, then this is not meant for me.

But I crossed that line. I looked up to make sure, and there was a lot of joy, but, um, I did feel relieved. Like I, I almost, I think like when I look back at the footage, I think I almost like see myself take that big, deep breath and it's like, it's finally done. Like, I finally have this medal that, you know, has alluded me for so long.

AG:
Did that end up changing how you trained for 2016?

Allyson Felix:
Um, it did. I felt like it going to 20, into 2016. I started to challenge myself outside of what I had been doing. So, um, 2004, 2008, 2012, I ran the 200 meters. In 2012 I also ran the hundred and then I ran both relays four-by-one and four-by-four. And I felt like I had a great experience. And then it was time to get outside of my comfort zone and challenge myself event wise.

And so, I jumped up an event to the 400 meters and for me, the 400 and for anybody who has even ran track and like PE, anybody who has gone around the track, um, at all one time and try to run as fast as you can, you will understand and relate to me that no matter how fast or how slow you go, it's not fun.

Your body, like it just, it's not happy to go that fast for that long there's lactic acid it's. So for me, it was. It was really hard to, to change events and to step up. And it wasn't something that came natural to me. It wasn't like always fun. The training wasn't fun. And so it was a challenge, but I, I feel like, you know, you have to get outside of that comfort zone to really push yourself.

AG:
Wait, Alison, my mind is blown right now. I was sure you're just one of those freaks of nature who enjoys the feeling of sprinting to the point of feeling like you're going to die. Is, are you saying that's not true?

Allyson Felix:
Absolutely not. I think in like all of my life, I've probably the furthest I've ever run maybe is like four miles and that's like, maybe I'm probably dying at the end. So I am a true sprinter-sprinter. So the 400 to me is like, that is definitely the cap. And it's also, I'm not a happy camper when I have to run it.

AG:
I—I can't believe that I have run farther than you.

Allyson Felix:
You have.

AG:
I had no idea. I kind of want to challenge you to a half marathon now and then get crushed.

Allyson Felix:
Adam, there is, I would have no chance, like, because I wouldn't finish. My body.

AG:
I've never run one either. And neither would I.

Allyson Felix:
Oh my gosh. That would be, that would be so funny.

AG:
Uh, no, I just, I, what I really wanna see is what, what your, what your arc is like from, you know, probably you're, you're pretty excited for the first hundred or so, and then you just go downhill.

Allyson Felix:
I could just tell you how it, how it's going to go after mile probably two.

AG:
Uh, I think we're going to have to get Wes in on this and make it, uh, some kind of event for charity. Allyson Felix runs more than four miles for the first time ever. I love this. Um, how do you, how do you stay focused? How did you keep yourself going when you don't you, I guess you don't even get the runners high, like a marathoner would.

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. It's, it's really challenging, especially to have been doing what I've been doing for so long. I think that you do kind of go through these ups and downs. I think it's changed. I think each year or each season of life, different things have kept me motivated. I think at the beginning for a long time it was that gold medal.

That's what, on those days where I wasn't feeling it, it was like, "My competitors are training, if I want this I've got to do more. I got to, you know, I, I have to be out here. Um, and then, you know, I think when I switched events that, that also helped it added a new kind of element to it. And then most recently I think becoming a mother has been the ultimate shift.

Um, I've always been a competitive person, you know, growing up my, I come from a competitive family, they never let me win in anything. So I think that had a lot to do with everything. Um, but becoming a mom shifted my whole motivation from why I want to win. You know, it was from my own kind of desires to, I want to show my daughter, you know, what overcoming adversity is like, and, you know, being a role model and all those things. So it became deeply personal, my motivation. And it's interesting. I feel like that also made me a better athlete, you know, that connection to something other than just, you know, wanting to win.

AG:
So let's talk about then Nike. I think maybe the place to start is just, can you tell the story of what happened and how you got the news that they were dropping you?

Allyson Felix:
I became a professional athlete. I was 17 years old when I signed my first contract. I don't think anybody ever sat me down and said like, you shouldn't have kids until, you know, you've accomplished all your goals, but at the same time, I don't think I ever saw women celebrated in that role, you know, as an athlete and as a mother.

And I think by sitting there and kind of taking that all in, that's what I saw. And so for me, I had colleagues and friends who hid pregnancies because they had to secure new contracts or they had contracts pause. They weren't getting paid because they were pregnant. Um, and I witnessed like all that hardship. And so when I decided to start a family in 2018, I was in negotiations for a new contract. And I was terrified because I, I knew that this was like the worst possible scenario to be trying to negotiate a contract and to be pregnant, you know, and to, to be an older athlete. And so already I was so scared. And then, um, the negotiations weren't going well and, you know, they started off really rocky and before I even disclosed my pregnancy, they were offering me 70% less than what I had previously been making.

So that happened. Yeah. And then I did disclose my pregnancy and then it was just, I just felt like I wasn't supported. Like I was basically, they were saying that my story was over. Like, you know, my best years were behind me. And so, they didn't have language in their contracts for maternal protection. And, um, in that whole process, you know, I decided to speak out and to share everything that I had went through, and then that led me to part ways with the company. And after I parted ways they did eventually go back and change their, change their policy. but you know, obviously I was, I was gone at that point

AG:
It's devastating and obviously so wrong. What did it feel like when they first said, no, we don't want to continue?

Allyson Felix:
I guess it felt just so - I felt really hurt, you know, because you feel like you're a family, you know, that's, what's really, you know, preached to you. And I guess they didn't say that they didn't want, like, they didn't just drop me. It was just that, what they valued me at was so low. And to me that was crushing because I think I had tied my value into, you know, into what they were saying. Like, I really, I really started to believe that that was my worth and my value, I, I had bought into the like, wow, well, I feel worthless now.

AG:
So I don't even know what to say. It's just shocking that, you know, in the 21st century that this was still happening. And did you, did it alter your plans at all? Did you think about retiring?

Allyson Felix:
There was a moment. I think I had such a hard time, with my birth experience and my daughter was in the NICU. And, um, there were moments when we were both still in the hospital where, you know, running wasn't on the forefront of my mind, especially at that time, we were still dealing with the negotiations and because things were so out of whack and I was dealing with so much, I, I thought, well, maybe they're right.

Like maybe I can't get back. And maybe this isn't something that I should continue to do, but I think that's the beauty of having an amazing support system and a family and, you know, coach who understands my goals, and who were able to see that, that vision for me, even when I was in the midst of all of, you know, the turmoil that like, no, this, you can still do this.

AG:
I'm, I'm certainly glad that they came up with that message early and often. Um, some of this reminds me of, of what sociologists called the motherhood penalty, which is to say working women face a lot of bias, but some of the worst bias happens when they decide to have children. And then people assume they're not committed to their career, they're not going to be fully focused on work. Uh, which is ridiculous because we all know that if you want to get something done, you should give it to a busy person. And I think, you know, in, in the workplace, Utterly ridiculous to expect that somebody's commitment to their family is going to detract from their commitment to their job.

In sports, it seems a little bit, it's still obviously wrong, but it's a little bit more understandable to wonder, like what, what effect does pregnancy have on a woman's body? Uh, is she able to come back, you know, to the same level of athletic fitness?

Allyson Felix:
I mean, like you said, it's kind of natural to go to that place because, you know, as athletes, we work with our bodies and so of course, you know, your body is changing and I think we haven't really seen it those stories haven't really been told that much. And so, because that's the case, I think that there's a lot of, you know, unknown surrounding it.

And I think a lot of women wait or in my case, you know, you wait to start a family because you feel like you have to. But I think when you support a woman holistically, then you don't have to force them to make that decision. I have a friend—She's a basketball player and she had her daughter, um, like in her prime and it's been beautiful to watch her raise her daughter and to also excel.

But I, beyond her, I can't think of too many women who have, who have done that and who it's, who have been celebrated and even listening to all of her stories, it, it was such a hard, you know, such a hardship. But I think that it is possible, but I think it has to be done the right way and we have to be supported to be able to, to do that and I would love for us to have more examples, um. Because I know if I can do it at 35 years old, it's a lot easier to do it much younger as well.

AG:
What, why do you think you're a better athlete because of becoming a mother? I know you mentioned that you now have someone to compete for, and you're thinking much more about being a role model. Is, is that part of it you're motivated in a different way than you were when you were just racing more for yourself?

Allyson Felix:
I think so. I think you, the perspective shifts, and I think when you can tie, tie it to something else it's, it's definitely more meaningful. Let me be clear, it's, it's harder. It's much harder, you know, at this point in life to do all the things that I do, because I, I don't know, I think back and it's like, wow, there was once a time in my life where I trained and I took a nap and I got nine hours of sleep and that was my life. And it was like, that's all I had to do? That's amazing! But life looks a lot different now, but I will say that with the time that I have, I'm just smarter, you know, I, I train smarter. I, I do things. I feel like I'm able to be much more effective. And because I can put things into perspective, I feel like I have more of myself to pour into what I'm doing. So, I do feel like I'm a better athlete for that.

AG:
Love that. So when, when Nike devalued you so significantly, this is from what I can tell the most visible sexism that you've experienced. Had you encountered it before though?

Allyson Felix:
Definitely not in this way. I'm sure, like in small ways, you know, and, In sport, you know, dealing with, I feel like how my male counterparts are, or marketed, or some of the opportunities that they got. I think being a female in sports is hard and not only do you have to be extraordinary at what you do. I think that there's a sense that you also need to be pretty, or you need to have this appeal or this, this crossover. And so, you know, I've dealt with things like that my entire career and, not feeling on the same level as, as some men who are doing the same things, but, uh, I had no other experience, like the one that I did, you know, of course with the whole Nike situation.

AG:
So it sounds like it had been much more subtle up to this point?

Allyson Felix:
Exactly. For sure.

AG:
And I can't help, but wonder too about the question of racism here, which is to say if you had been a white woman, would they have responded differently?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. And I've had those same questions myself, you know, I try to be very cautious, you know, when I, I think that just naturally, I'm always, kind of going there and double checking myself, but I've definitely had to wonder that, I mean, I've dealt with a lot throughout my career of just being a black woman in sports and trying to cross over and especially in Olympic sports and not getting the same opportunities as some others and so it's been hard. I have had those same questions and I can't obviously say that it would have been different, but I, I have those questions myself. And it felt very personal that after I had accomplished so much that I would be in this place. And so I think I could look to a lot of different things, maybe just being a woman in general, maybe being a black woman. I think that's the hard part is that you don't really know.

AG:
I mean, it's sort of poetic justice, right? To, to come out of now 2021 and here you are with a bronze medal and a gold medal. If I have read the stats correctly, you came back faster after becoming a mother and after being dropped by Nike.

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, it's, it's been pretty incredible. There was so much doubt with everything that I had been through. If I could be faster at this age than when I started out, it's just kind of mind blowing, and the persistence and to not give up, I know a lot of us have felt that—where someone has put limitations on you or has told you where you belong — and to try to break free. It can be a hard process, but for me, there is no better feeling than stepping on that track and being able to do what I knew I could do a couple of years ago.

AG:
Did you have an, “I told you so” moment?

Allyson Felix:
I think the, the biggest moment, I think it was just kind of a moment that I shared with just family and friends was being able to do it in the shoes that our brand created, Saysh. that was kind of the moment. It was like, wow. I, I was told to know my place and that place is like in these shoes, in these shoes that we created.

So that was the only moment if anything, but I think more than that, it was like, it was this overwhelming feeling of like, I'm a representation for those women, for all those people who have felt overlooked, like here I am. So many people connected with me and reached out to me. And that was even another sense of motivation as well.

AG:
I wonder, I'm thinking about some research that my colleague Samir Nurmohamed did, where he found that sometimes when you're the favorite, it makes you a little bit complacent and that when you get underestimated, or even, you get sort of turned into the underdog, that you have something to prove all over again. And he's found that it's especially motivating to want to prove somebody else wrong. It almost seems like Nike was this, this enemy now that you had to defeat. Was that part of your drive at any point?

Allyson Felix:
It was my belief that I knew that I could do it. So I don't think I want to even give them that credit. But, um, that's really interesting because I feel like for me it's always been easier to be the underdog. And I think even when you are the favorite, you create some sense of something in your own head.

My husband and my brother tell me all the time—something will happen, and I'll feel like I have to prove this person wrong. And they say, “That doesn't even exist. You literally created that.” And I say, "No, that's really what it is." I think it's this idea of when you're at the top, you have to have something to reach for, and so whether you fabricate it or, or however you get to it ... I think it is always easier to be the underdog.

AG:
I think so too. And I guess that, that makes me curious about what the lead up to 2021 was, especially when it came a year after it was supposed to, I know for a lot of athletes, it was a huge letdown and they found themselves sort of languishing or even burning out, knowing that it was now a five, a five-year lag instead of four, and they'd kind of tapered and ramped up for this critical moment, and it, the rug was swept out from under them. Um, but I also know you, you were working on sort of rebooting in some ways your career. Were there any benefits of having that extra year?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, there were, I couldn't tell it at the time because I was - when I heard that the Olympics were going to be postponed, I was devastated because obviously as an athlete, as an Olympian, everything is timing. And so obviously being older already, I was like, oh gosh, I'm going to be another year older. Like, “can I do this? Do I want to do this?” Like I had all those questions. And so I took time and space to kind of grieve that loss. It wasn't gonna look like the way that I had imagined.

And then that's when it came time, like, okay, we gotta pivot, we gotta adapt to this, our new circumstances and how can we get better? And so now being able to reflect, I will say having that extra year, I think I did get better. I think I got stronger. I think that it was a blessing. Obviously nobody wanted the world to be in the state that it was, but I think we try to make the best of a difficult situation.

AG:
Wow. I think you definitely did that. What was going through your head as you arrived in Tokyo? I remember, I think I saw it on Twitter actually, the early announcement that you weren't allowed to even bring immediate family—and I'm like, wait, you're doing this for your daughter and she can't even be there with you?? What?? No!

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, that was pretty tough, yeah. What I had visualized in my head was the victory lap with Cammie and that had motivated me for so long. So hearing that wasn't going to happen, I was like, okay. But at that point it's like, I've come this far, I'll have to tell her the stories.

AG:
So tell me then what the, what the two medal experiences felt like.

Allyson Felix:
The bronze medal came first and, man, each round, it was like, you know, just, just focusing on that and trying to get to the next, and things were coming together. I was running my fastest that I had in years. I really just wanted to run free in the final. I think I have always held a lot of expectations and a lot of weight of others on my shoulders when I compete. And I remember I had a conversation with my brother before I went out on the track and he was just reminding me that, “your value is not tied to whether you win this race, or if you come in dead last. You are still the same person. You are so worthy.” and just reinforcing those thoughts in my head.

And he just reminded me to have fun and to enjoy this, like, this is my last competition on the Olympic stage. And so I did, and so winning that bronze medal, it was so special. I was so happy to be able to do so with my daughter in mind, but with so many women and moms in mind as well, and just overcoming so much. So that was incredible. And then to get to run on the relay and get the gold medal, and that was so special, it's such a special group of women. I couldn't have dreamt it any better.

AG:
I was trying to figure out, right when you won your bronze, whether that took some of the pressure off, because you knew you had medaled in your last Olympics or whether it intensified the pressure, because now you're one medal away from beating Carl Lewis’ record to become, what the most decorated American track and field athlete ever?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. It's so funny because you know, I, I never like, set out to break any of those records, those records were never on my radar. And I think because I didn't focus on them, it didn't give me any extra pressure. For me, it was like, that's amazing if it happens, but if it doesn't also like I'm so fulfilled, I'm so satisfied.

Um, so it was just like this extra special thing. So I honestly, I didn't even give it more thought. It was like, you know, you go into every race and you want to win and that's your mindset. And so I just did that and it's like, if this comes then that's, that's amazing.

AG:
Is there any chance that you go for a 12th medal?

Allyson Felix:
No, there is not. but I will be cheering everyone on and I think it's going to be really cool to be a spectator in Paris and to be able to take in the games, like from a different perspective, having been on this side for so, so long.

AG:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about some of the dynamics that are facing athletes now. I think burnout and mental health came to the fore during this Olympics in a way that I've never seen in sports. Um, you know, whether we're thinking about Naomi Osaka or Simone Biles. And one of the things that I kept thinking about was like, are, are we finally reaching a point where we don't expect our elite athletes to sacrifice their physical and emotional health for excellence?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. I think it was, it's really important what's happening right now. I think it's nothing new, but I I don't think athletes have shared this part of their life before. And so I was just so proud that these two young women have really shined a light on this area because, you know, it's really hard.

It is really hard and there are so many expectations and, everybody handles things very differently and there's no, you know, right way to do it. And I think we have to value our mental health and we have to have resources to be able to deal with these things. The expectations are so high, and just understanding that these still are human beings and they still have issues just like the rest of everyone else in the world. And so, I think just being able to get a glimpse into that was helpful. And I think it's going to do a lot for not only athletes, but just a lot of people in the world.

AG:
I hope so too. I was, I was mortified looking at some of the commentary on Simone Biles in particular, as for a lot of reasons, but one of them is as a former diver. I've had the twisties and psychologically, it feels the same as vertigo. I remember I coached a diver who had a horrible case of the twisties and it took us a good several months to help her relearn a routine that she could do in her sleep previously.

And it was almost like her body lacked the capability to execute whatever neural pathways had been built up previously. And it was almost like teaching someone to walk after a stroke. I was like, "What in the world are these—I don't even want to dignify them as armchair quarterbacks—these couch potatoes doing, judging something they don't understand?" You must've gone through some of that, too. What were you thinking and feeling as that was going on?

Allyson Felix:
I felt the same way. I mean, it was just such a - I think, you know, for the first time I was really seeing how people viewed athletes, and just that this is such entertainment. And that, that there's not like a person on the other side of these, these comments and I think some people do not understand when they're calling Simone Biles a quitter, [that] this is the greatest gymnast we have ever seen. And knowing her dedication and her work ethic and her personally, it was really sad to see kind of where some people are with all of this.

And I also felt that, I dunno, I, that just wanting to be more transparent, I think. And that's why I tried to share some more of my feelings going through this process, because I think that when we are, then it does kind of bring people in a little bit more, but it also just showed how far we have to go.

AG:
It really did. I can't, I can't remember the last time I'd been so enraged by something that had no direct effect on me in sports, then people thinking, well, you know, but we watch like football players, you know, play on a, like a bad knee and then they get surgery in the off season. I'm like, she gets lost in midair. We have seen gymnasts paralyzed or worse.

Allyson Felix:
Yes, and I think that's the whole ... it just seems so cold. Like she could lose her life ... I don't know if people didn't understand how dangerous that is, or if they don't care. Either way it's, inot a good place to be.

AG:
No. And so I guess one of, one of my hopes coming out of all this is that we're going to start building a healthier culture in sports, and that athletes are going to be encouraged to prioritize their wellbeing, not only their performance. What does that look like? How do we get there?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely going to take a lot of steps, but I think, having these conversations and bringing them to the forefront and having really popular athletes like Simone and Naomi, to be able to, bring people into this.

But I think we're going to have to start at the youth level, teaching kids that you do value your mental health, and this is how you value it. This is the steps that you take and just break down those systems. You know, I think about the collegiate system and just how demanding that is and just how a lot of it is not healthy and, you know, looking at, you know, how we do things in these organizations and, and kind of just disrupting that.

AG:
And so is there a version of, sort of, taking mental health and wellbeing seriously that doesn't sacrifice our competitiveness?

Allyson Felix:
I believe so. I believe that we can do both and that we can be just as great if not better. I think when you take care of yourself holistically, it makes you a better person and in return, it makes you a better athlete. I can only speak to my own experience, but I feel like when I, value my mental health, when I do what I need to do it, it does, it makes me feel better in, in return, be able to train, better.

And I think that your competitive edge doesn’t just go away because you decide to take care of your mind. I think it's a part of seeing the picture as a whole and knowing that this is a part of you and you have to give attention to it. But I think you can be just as competitive, but you can be, you know, a better athlete when you, when you are, you know, really valuing yourself as a whole person.

AG:
I wanted to ask you about coaching. You've had the privilege of working with some really world-class coaches and I wonder if there are any lessons you've taken away from them about how to motivate people?

Allyson Felix:
That's a really great and interesting question. I feel like I've been really blessed to work with a coach for a long time, a long period of time. We've been together for 18 years and he is a very demanding coach, Bobby Kersee. Um, he demands excellence and, you know, you know, when you step onto his track, you know, that's what you have to give him.

And he, I think he has a very old school way of motivating. He's, he's a bit of a yeller and screamer, but what I'll say that I have learned from him is that he is an excellent coach because he not only cares about how my performance is on the track, but he cares about me as a person. And I, I feel that I know that it's not just about performance with him. And that makes me know that I can trust him, that he has my best interest in mind. And I think that's, that's something that's rare. A lot of times when you're talking about performance, it's just who can get the most out of you, but you don't think about like, who is that person who, in your time of need, who is showing up and who's in your corner when it has nothing related to nothing, they have nothing to benefit from that. Um, and so I, I think that's a lesson I've learned from him.

AG:
Even though you're smashing his wife's records.

Allyson Felix:
And, and that's also a combination of as well, because she's my mentor. And so it's like this whole connection and, they're just such genuine, authentic people, but also amazing at what they do, you know, amazing at coaching, amazing at getting the best out of, uh, individuals.

AG:
So I have a, another colleague, Chad Murphy, who's been studying what happens to athletes' identities when they retire. And finding that it's disorienting for a lot of them, because for so long, they've defined themselves by their sport and by their achievement in that world. And they're like, well, who am I now? What is my worth? To talk about the way that you described it earlier. How are you thinking about who you are moving from?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. And, I think it's a bit scary, you know, because I relate to everything that you said. You know, I've been running track for so long. It's, it's been what I've done every single day. And so to think about not having that, it's different. And I think change is hard.

I think that there's no way around that. Like, there's, I'm going to miss competing. I'm going to miss the competition. And, yes, I'll be able to do something that can help fill that void, but I don't think there's going to be anything that's going to take the place of lining up at the Olympic games and all of that. But I think it's about seasons of life and that's something that, if you're an athlete or if you have a job in corporate America, you're going to have different seasons of life.

And so it's going to be challenging transitioning to the next phase, but also I think it's a time to appreciate the experience and that I was able to do what I loved for so long. And I think it's just that mindset as well. So I hope that the next journey, the next chapter will be even greater. But I don't know. I'm sure, I'm sure, it's going to be, challenging.

AG:
I've no doubt that it's going to be greater, especially with this front row seat that I've gotten as an advisor to Saysh. It’s been, it's been so exciting to watch you and Wes build this, especially to, to create a different kind of role model and possible self for, I think, especially girls of color growing up and not having had that historically.

I also think, like, I grew up like almost all my role models were men. And I think it's a travesty that I wasn't raised to look up to women and want to follow in their footsteps. And, now I look at this, I think there are going to be boys who say with all due respect to Kanye, like I want to run in Allyson Felix’s shoes.

Allyson Felix:
That's so amazing. I mean, I completely agree. I had, even as a young girl, had a lot of male athletes that I looked up to and I think just having the opportunity to be able to do things differently. I mean, I can't thank you enough for your role in our company and you know, what you have done for us. I'm just so grateful.

And I think even in building Saysh, you know, having, when I talked with Wes about, you know, could we do this, you know, having those thoughts well, at why, why could we do this? You know, two kids from the heart of LA, like, you know, you, you don't see it often and you don't have, you know, those people to say, well, this person did it, like let's model after that. But now to be able to say for the next, you know, generation or even thinking of my daughter, you know, and how she grows up that we can do this and that there shouldn't be a limit on, you know, what we think we're capable of.

AG:
Why not you?

Allyson Felix:
Yes*.*

AG:
One of the things that I've really enjoyed, really, since I guess, Tokyo, I don't know if this was deliberate or if it just happened, but your Instagram is different now. I see you owning your success in a way that I never noticed before, at least. And I think it's such a great way to, to challenge in many ways, a culture that expects women to be excessively humble and to not be proud of what they've accomplished. How did you arrive there?

Allyson Felix:
I think it's definitely been just a process through the years of getting older and maturing. And I think also going through everything that I went through the last couple of years, I think it really put me in that place that, it's interesting. I read something that Naomi Osaka was saying a bit ago about celebrating her successes and, I think often, you might naturally be humble or might expect it to be.

And I think it's like, no, like celebrate when, there's a time to do so. And, bring people in on the journeys as well. Instead of just the moments of, of glory. It's like, no, this is what I think also because people had kind of seen my journey and they kind of walked with me through this. They knew what a big victory it was. And so it's easier to share, but I've just, I've tried to challenge myself to be more transparent, you know, to the good, the bad, like give a full picture of what's going on.

AG:
There is a pretty long line of research by Laurie Rudman and her colleagues showing that women who self-promote are often liked less because they're seen as violating that norm of modesty that we expect of women, but not necessarily of men. Did you have hesitations about, “Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to post: most decorated US track and field athlete of all time," or "I'm going to post a medal picture”?

Allyson Felix:
Yeah, I think it definitely, probably doesn't come natural to me, but then at the same time, I don't know. I just really wanted to own the accomplishments and celebrate those that helped me because I think it's easy. At least my sport is a great example. If you feel like it's this individual sport and it's like, it's just me, but, uh, there's a team of people who allow me to be able to have the opportunity. So being able to celebrate the accomplishment that we all did, you know, is, is really special. And then to make that the norm, like there's a lot of different wins and it doesn't look like just going to five Olympic games, like there are wins in everyday life. There are wins that are all over the place. And I think we should celebrate those more.

AG:
That's I think what's been so powerful about watching the way that you've communicated with the world is I think you're going to make that research untrue, right? You're going to change those norms and shatter these unacceptable, outdated expectations that women are not allowed to be ambitious and also to celebrate when they accomplish something great.

Allyson Felix:
Yeah. I would love that to be the case, because I think we all should have be wildly ambitious and go after, you know, our, our greatest dreams.

Taken for Granted is part of the TED Audio Collective. The show is hosted by me, Adam Grant. Our team includes Colin Helms, Eliza Smith, Aja Simpson, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng and Anna Phelan. This episode was produced by Cosmic Standard and mixed by Jacob Winik. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown.

AG:
I didn't ask you up front to introduce yourself, but I'm going to have you do it now.

Allyson Felix:
Okay. I'm Allyson Felix. I am an Olympian and a sprinter and, uh, just came back from my fifth Olympic games.

AG:
And you're also ...

Allyson Felix:
Oh, I am also the most decorated. Uh, I am the most decorated American track and field athlete.

AG:
I still had to ask for it. We just had a whole conversation

Allyson Felix:
No, I know that.